Character limits

[Hal Jordan]

I had a couple of thoughts in regards character bio's I thought I'd post, to see what others think. These come from experience and/or rules on other sites;

Limited number of characters per player - In my experience 'have as many characters as you feel you can handle' doesn't work. Sooner or later you'll end up with people taking on too many characters, or one or two people playing all the major roles.

Minimum number of (RP) posts before taking on another character. Like the above people can sometimes take more characters they can handle, and not realise this until it is too late. This can bring threads to a standstill or seriously slow things down. It seems that requiring players to have stuck around for a while before they can start a second character works wonders, since players can quickly see how much work is involved in playing one character and therefore make more informed decisions as to if they have the time to play another.
The best way to determine this is through RP posts, and I know Proboards allows boards to only register posts made in specific sections in the post count.

Limits on powers/toning down powers - There is always a risk with characters being so overpowered it is hard to find viable threats for them. DC have discovered this several times, it is why Superman has had his powers cut back several times over the years and probably explains why the none-powered heroes such as Batman tend to be more popular.
A related risk is in players ending up defining a character in terms of their powers rather than their personality. The most interesting and popular characters in comics are the ones who's powers are defined by their personality - for example the X-Men are so popular because they are written as people who just happen to be able to flatten a city in a few minutes. A more specific example would be the Marvel character Wolverine. His popularity comes from his personality not because of his powers. Indeed the character still worked the same when his powers were removed.
I think some guidelines or rules regarding powers and their levels are needed to address this. 'Nerfing' cannon powers should be required for many of the more powerful characters unless the mods specifically agree to allow something closer to the cannon version in specific cases.

Thoughts?

[Bruce Wayne]

Great ideas Hal. I for one would be in favor of having a post count for next character progression. Say 20 posts for the first character, another 20 for the new character and so on.

What about having a 'select' or 'premium' character list. For characters that are flat out powerful? The requisites being that the player have one or two characters under his/her belt, and undergo an audition process.

Limiting powers would be alright as well. Take Superman: if you keep his core powers (flight, super hearing, invulnerability, heat/X-ray vision) and retain his weaknesses such as lead and kryptonite then it would make a playable character.

[Shayera Hol]

I'm going to warn you guys right now that I'm very opinionated on this, but even after I've said my piece, feel free to keep discussing - I may be swayed, lol.

Here's my thoughts: I'm flatly opposed to limiting the number of characters per player. Why? Some people really are able to handle a ton of characters, and if they can I'm inclined to let them do so. However, I agree that it's bad to simply let a player take on a ton of characters quickly or to let a single player hog a lot of major roles. But I disagree that the best way to do this is by any hard and fast rules like a specific number of RP posts or length of time present.

I personally prefer to take each player on a case by case basis - but for a new player I see no reason to not let them take on a second character immediately, though if they start talking about any more than that I'd start to tell them that I'd like to see them keep what they already have active first. The reason for allowing two is simple: some characters, because of the niche they fill, are hard to get 'started' or are difficult to find scenes for even after they've begun. Allowing two makes it easier for a new player looking for activity to find things to do and eventually helps them stick around longer. And it's been my experience that most players start off with just one anyway.

But I definitely wouldn't want a new player to have three - not until they show that they're active with two. And not four until they're active with three, and so on. And 'active' is not measured in the sheer number of RP posts but whether or not they reply promptly to their scenes. This is more easily measured by simply stepping back and observing behavior rather than looking at a number.

Unfortunately, all this stuff about activity requirements and when to allow players to have more characters is not something that Clark and I discussed much before he disappeared, so that's why there seems to be a gap in that in the rules. *sigh*

But overpowered characters is actually something that Clark and I discussed quite a bit before he disappeared. And my opinion is that there has to be a balance between letting characters be so powerful that they're omnipotent and so weak that you start to cut into, frankly, how awesome some of them are supposed to be. Some characters are supposed to be nigh unto undefeatable.

The way I've always measured it while reading an app is by comparison: if Batman can defeat Superman without using kryptonite, something is wrong. If Superman can defeat Batman while he's holding kryptonite, something is wrong. And the problem with writing actual guidelines for this is... well, with so many characters with so many different powers, how does one begin to write actual guidelines? Once again, it's something I'm inclined to address on a case by case basis.

But it's not really how the powers are described in the app that will fix anything, it's the way the person plays the character. And I think that's best addressed by what Clark wrote about Godmoding in the rules section. And I think that peppering the site with too many flat rules ruins the fun, to be honest, and fun is why we're here, no?

[Hal Jordan]

Agreed, listing some of the more powerful characters as 'select' would make sense. I'd add a 'Prohibited' list for any characters considered far to powerful to be played or who's role is too narrow to allow them to fit into general role play. I'm thinking of the likes of Doomsday and/or Superman Prime. These characters would be prohibited outright - although the mods would be allowed to use them if a plot really required their appearance.

If the (RP) post count is used to to judge if someone can take on another character, then an idea might be too allow a player to reserve that character once they are close to the required number of posts for two weeks. Say if the requirement is 20 (RP) posts then a character could be reserved at 15 posts. (This could simply be done by posting a bio marked 'Reserved' in the application area). This and the two week window should be more than enough time to have the bio finished before or just after the post count is reached, while preventing abuse by people who just leave a reserved character sitting around for a long time.


Maybe in the case of alien or none-human characters who share abilities with the rest of their species, a list of base powers for that species would be useful. I'm thinking of Amazons, Kryptonians and Green Lanterns here. Since all of these share the same basic power sets (although Wonder Woman is far more powerful than her 'Sisters'.)

[Kori Anders]

Okay, seems like there has been a lot being said here, so I will try to stick to the issues I think most pertinent to rp instead of addressing everything.

I can understand both positions on the "Character restrictions" issue. I think a posting limit is a reasonable way to prevent people from taking more characters than they can hanlde, as long as it is a reasonable limit. On the other hand, Shayera is right, and what is a reasonable number of characters to roleplay at once really depends on what's going on in the player's life. If you aren't on a whole lot of sites and you feel you can manage a second character...then setting a posting requirement to obtain a second character is kinda frustrating.

In regards to overpowered characters such as Darkseid, I think they can be great- under the proper circumstances. Characters like this require a great number of heroes to work together to face a vast threat, so it's a good way to get a plot arc going. However, players start to grind their teeth if the villains escapes every 3 weeks from the Phantom Zone.

In other words, they can work well as temp characters, but that's about it. Perhaps if a sitewide plot could use a near-unstoppable character, then Shayera could let players apply for the position for a time. Of course, the player would have to meet high standards for role-play quality to prevent godmodding...or the character could just be controlled by the admin.

Or you could just say they're flat out off-limits.

In regards to powers....I have to say I'm generally a fan of going by what is canonical. Simply saying all characters can't have more than x number of powers isn't a good idea, especially if x is a low number. Plus, with good story-writing, the sheer number of powers isn't important. Superman has been held off time after time by a guy who has no superpowers...only a shiny forehead and a brillaint mind. Why? Because Superman refuses to kill Lex and because Lex is so smart and one step ahead of Superman. Toning down Superman actually makes Lex Luthor less interesting.

Additionally, you have to clearly define what is a power. I've seen people get cutesy about this and bundle several powers into one. Sometimes this may seem like a legitimate call, (Flash's speed force comes to mind), but I was on a site where I saw people put all of Clark's powers under the simple heading of "Kryptonian physiology" to fulfill a 3-power limit/character. When I pointed out the lack of logic in this to the site admin, she got cutesy and gave me some ambiguous statement about "well at some point all rules need to be broken."

The main problem I see with how people often role-play superhero characters is in stating that characters have powers which they have never been confirmed to actually have. For example, often times I have seen people claim Spider-Man has a healing factor. Spider-Man's confirmed powers are the following:

-ability to adhere to most surfaces
-spider-sense
-speed, strength, and reflexes proportionate to that of a spider

Stan Lee has never mentioned Spider-Man having a healing factor or superhuman durability, nor do I recall Spider-Man having gained it since his resurrection. The simple fact that he hasn't been beaten to a bloody pulp by the Rhino doesn't necessarily make him super-durable. He's a freaking comic book character!!!! He's allowed to do impossible things without them having to be explained. Claiming Spider-Man has a healing factor because he's still alive would be like claiming Batman has superhuman endurance because he never appears to sleep and yet the only time he suffered for it was when Bane was on the loose.

[Hal Jordan]

Actually Spider Man does have a healing factor, and it was mentioned as such very early on in the comics. It isn't instant, like Wolverines, but has been noted that he can recover from even broken ribs with a day or two's rest.

For some reason this seems to get missed out of his powers, even though the writers themselves are clearly aware of it as they were still including it in stories.

Anyway.

A minimum post count to take on another character doesn't have to be a flat '20/20/20'. It could be a sliding scale, say 5/15/25. This would allow new players to pick up a second character fairly quickly, but make it increasingly harder to pick up additional characters - and therefore mean that the 'one month wonders' will not end up applying for several characters all at once only to vanish, or realise they don't have the time to play all of them. But by the same token the initial requirements are low enough that a second character is easy to pick up, while still getting a feel for the board overall and its requirements.

I think for simplicities sake prohibiting some of the more powerful characters in the DC universe makes the best sense. If any of them are required for a plot as temporary characters I like the idea of them opening up the character to those players on the board the mods feel might be able to RP them well. Thinking on, this might make better sense than just limiting those characters to the mods alone - if only so the mods don't end up being snowed under with work.

As regards powers I'm not really talking about limiting the number of powers as such. Rather reducing the power levels for those powers in some way. In practical terms it doesn't matter if character 'X' is strong enough to move a planet, or 'only' strong enough to lift a 747. Either way they are not someone you'd want to arm wrestle.